Christians do some of you actually use Josephus as "proof" that jesus existed?
Someone claims that the following are "proof" that jesus existed;
"The Bible, Josephus Flavius, Pliny the Younger, Suetonius, Mara bar Sarapion, Dead Sea Scrolls..."
L:et's examine them, one by one, shall we?
The bible, is a book of mythology. Claiming that jesus existed because he's mentioned in the bible is like saying Frodo was real because he's mentioned in the Lord of the Rings. Besides, any book that is supposed to be "divinely inspired" by an omnipotent being, yet calls bats "unclean birds" shouldn't be relied on for anything other than amusement. Or a doorstop.
Josephus's ONE line about christians (note, NOT about jesus) is a well known 3d century forgery by the monk Eusibius. He himself admitted that he was a "liar for god".
Pliny, likewise, only mentions christians, not jesus. Which is the same as saying that Zeus existed because he had followers.
Suetonius, likewise, only mentions christians. See above.
Mara's original source is long since lost and the translation was so poorly done that historians could have put mickey mouse in the place of jesus and we'd still be at the same place.
The dead sea scrolls mention nothing about jesus.
So, once again we have a case of ignorance and misinformation, taking the place of actual research. It's what christianity is based on apparently...
If we have people, living in the area, at the time that someone is supposed to have lived, and this someone did miraculous things, enough to draw the attention of the Roman Consul in the area, and yet they don't write a single line about him, you can rest assured that it was all a hoax written years later.
"Once again, you have flawed and false information about Josephus."
I'm betting you've NEVER even read his history. Cherry picking ONE known forged line (in ONE copy by the way, the other two have the proper line transcribed. Eusibius missed those two because they weren't accessible to him. The albigensians died protecting that book and others because of it) isn't the way to intellectual honesty.
Thought that doesn't sit well with your guys does it? Especially when it doesn't help your cause...
So, you'll take self-induced delusion over reality?
Good luck with that.
True I know some actually reach that far, but no one seriously believes them.
And yes, the idiot squad is here in force. I thought they'd be emptying their wallets at the temple of ignorance right now...
"25,000 manuscripts and documents were written about Jesus by 60 AD only 33 years after His death and Resurrection. "
Oh, thanks SO much for the laugh! I really needed that right now.
- godlessLv 79 years agoFavorite Answer
Here's how to know that the Josephus references to Jesus (in a paragraph and a sentence) are frauds:
* Despite the fact that Josephus' writings were widely read, no Christian or scholar before Eusebius refers to it, especially not the Christian scholar Origen, whose library Eusebius used.
* Origen even wrote that Josephus did not believe in Jesus Christ.
* If the pious Jew Josephus had truly thought that Jesus was the Messiah, he would have become a Christian.
* It's unlikely that Josephus would have referred to the accusing Jews as “the principal men among us.”
* There never was a “tribe of Christians.”
* Copies of Josephus' works existed, that lacked either reference to Jesus.
* The style of the text is radically different from the rest of his writings.
* The text is completely out of context with the paragraphs around it, and interrupts their story line. The next paragraph begins, "About the same time also another sad calamity put the Jews into disorder..." This refers to the previous paragraph, where Pilate had his soldiers massacre a large crowd of Jews in Jerusalem.
* Josephus wrote extensively about many minor people of the time. A single paragraph and sentence for the Messiah is impossible.
With these two references removed from Josephus' writings, he becomes strong negative evidence for Jesus. If Jesus had existed, Josephus would have written extensively about him.
For much more evidence that Jesus never existed, see the links.
-Source(s): http://www.godlessgeeks.com/JesusExist.htm http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/originsofchr... http://ffrf.org/legacy/about/bybarker/rise.php http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/source.html http://www.godlessgeeks.com/WhyAtheism.htm http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm
- JenniferLv 44 years ago
Actually you posted four of the six thousand sources. The Bible is considered proof. It is historically authentic and mentions Jesus many times. We have more proof in those writings than anywhere else. Even if you don't believe it to be the word of God, it is considered a historical and accurate document because of the other true historical things mentioned...therefore it is believed that Jesus being mentioned is also true. All the websites you offer are those with an agenda to disprove Christ. They cannot.
- LeonardLv 79 years ago
"Josephus's ONE line about christians (note, NOT about jesus) is a well known 3d century forgery by the monk Eusibius. He himself admitted that he was a "liar for god". "
That is not entirely true. Josephus famous testimonium is a forgery, but it consists of more than one line.
And he does mention A Jesus elsewhere, namely where he refers to "James, the brother of Jesus". It doesn't have to be our Jesus, however.
Oh boy... the idiot squad is out in force today.
- Anonymous9 years ago
You are so ignorant. Go get educated. Liberty has actually provided books and sources that validate what she's saying. You are choosing to be so blind that your even willing to look past facts and history. nice.
@Liberty has provides lots of evidence for Jesus' existence and is full of much more substance than your question that just declares information as true without ever providing sources. She totally out did you intellectually and factually.
But you're going to ignore it aren't you? Pretend like it's not there. Maybe glance over the text and think "haha well yeah..Christian propaganda and stuff heh heh"
Think again. You're smart, allow your mind to be open to what history provides as evidence of Jesus. Because every credible historian and archeolgist (Christian or not) will never make the idiotic claim that Jesus was just a myth and that He never existed.
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- Anonymous9 years ago
25,000 manuscripts and documents were written about Jesus by 60 AD only 33 years after His death and Resurrection. Eye witnesses were still around. He is literally the most recorded man in ancient History. These manuscripts were going around while the Pharisees were trying to cover up the evidence. Not a single scribe was written that contested that Jesus both lived, taught, and performed miracles. The Pharisees or Romans never questioned Jesus' acts on earth. They only questioned if He was really God, as Jesus claimed, or from the Devil. Now, Jesus who sacrifices His life on the cross for the sins of the world, washes his disciples feet, and heals blind men was certainly not from any evil source.
Concerning the idea the Jesus was just a myth or legend, how can that possibly be? Myths and legends usually take several centuries to develop. They are also reflective of the culture at that time and the needs of the people. Israel was looking for a great, mighty, military leader who would free them from Rome. If the jews were going to make up the Messiah, they would have created a Jesus that looked and acted much different. Jesus was controversial and going against society and culture of that time as well as revealing the pharisee's true nature. In the Hebrew's mind, the Messiah would have elevated the pharisees with praise and given them much authority. However Jesus had a much different agenda in mind. He wasn't about freeing Israel and using force and violence. He was about service, humility, and freeing us from the bondage of sin and restoring our spiritual nature.
Also why would 12 disciples who were going around making up a story that was supposed to permeate the Jewish culture of that time come up with the idea that women witnessed Jesus' resurrecting from the tomb? Women had no authority or say during those times. But the disciples were trying to stay true to what actually happened. Also, none of the gospels are exactly alike. Some recollections even contradict each other in small ways. Those involved in Titanic reportedly had conflicting stories. It just gives further evidence that these stories were authentic and we have different views and perspectives of what happened.
Also keep in mind who these disciples were. There were 12 of them. If these disciples were crazy, we would have recorded evidence that they were in fact crazy. But these men were good, law abiding citizens, well practicing Jews. Luke was lawyer and a few of them were even tax collectors.
So you really have to observe all the facts and look at things from a broad point of view as well as educate yourself on the facts. There's a reason Jesus is the single most influential and discussed man in history. I haven't seen a single legend, story, or myth that has had such an impact on humanity.
So pleas please please use logic and don't choose to ignore the facts that history provides as an attempt to discredit the validity of Jesus' life.
EDIT: We also have extrabiblical sources aside from Josephus. We also have Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, the Babylonian Talmud, and Lucian. Here is a quote from Pliny, "They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food--but food of an ordinary and innocent kind."
***Notice Pliny didn't ever imply that Christ didn't exist. Here he is validated that both Christ and Christians exist. He only implies that He doesn't believe Christ is God.
Go to my Probe source for further information.
(1) J. D. Crossan, Chicago Tribune Magazine (July 17, 1994): 8.
(2) Crossan, The Historical Jesus: The Life of a Mediterranean Jewish Peasant (San Francisco: Harper SanFrancisco, 1991), xxvii.
- Anonymous9 years ago
The Holy Bible has thousands of years of evidence to proof it is the words of our Creator and the Holy Bible tells us very clearly that Jesus is the second in the Trinity of God who has always existed in fact we were created through Jesus and the Holy Spirit is within us so the truth is with us and Jesus is the Only way to heaven and without the grace of God < JESUS> you will be seperated in Hell from your Creator it is not a lack of proof why people dennie God it is pride and the hardning of their heart towards the truth of life
- 9 years ago
Same thing can be said about other historical figures like Alexander the Great, Genghis Khan, etc
I know of no reputable historian who believes that the man Jesus never existed
- 9 years ago
Once again, you have flawed and false information about Josephus.
There is a mountain of evidence in the case for Christ.
Not only some mountain, but a Mount Everest! The Bible and Chrisitanity are true historically and anthropologically. Where do you get your info from? I hope it's not trolls on Usenet. Seriously, where do you get your info from?
- 9 years ago
yes, they "believe" it, but can't prove it right, and they can't prove their god is real, while proving the existence of other gods false.
the judeo-christian god is a myth and historical evidence proves it.
3.3.3 Atheism: A History of God (Part 1)
- plannerLv 79 years ago
lol...no, real christians do not feel a need to "prove" that either God or Jesus exist. we already know that they do, so no further proof is needed. as for the rest of you, well, proving himself to you is God's business.
i can recall when i didn't believe he existed either, but he went to a great deal of trouble to convince me that he does. so i already have my proof, but it is personal to me. if you want proof, you are going to have to get your own, that is, if he decides to give it to you. i hope he does for your sake.